There are exceptions, of course. The young folks at Daily Fresh this morning were quite pleasant and seemed to have good senses of humor. But as I was walking down the avenue, from the main square (trg in Croatian - take THAT, spell check!) to the train station, I walked past one woman whose look translated as, "what are YOU doing here, you fuckin' fuck?", and another who pressed her lips togeher and shook her head as I walked by, as if she KNEW there were times when I returned my library book late and forgiveness of the debt - indeed, even payment of the debt - would never remove the blight I had visited on the world just by being here.
These encounters are common here in Croatia, and even more common in Bosnia. Perhaps Balkan folks are just kind of . . . curdled. Perhaps it is the result of the troubles they have endured in the last three decades. It isn't only a generational thing: I was sneered at by a clerk in a bakery in Sarajevo.
Regardless, these encounters make the good encounters much more satisfying, like working up a serious thirst before slaking it. The van driver who took me from Plitvice back to Zagreb - who resembled George Clooney in profile, by the way - was great fun as he explained places we were passing and complained about other drivers in his rudimentary English. He showed me a picture of his family, and as he referred to his wife or girlfriend he called her, with unself-conscious sincerity, his "darling."
The architecture oozes Zagreb's long and difficult history, the cafes are comfortable aeries to watch people move through their lives. But I cant say that I'm getting much in the way of warm fuzzies. And let's not even start with the weirdness at the Catholic cathedral yesterday (Jesus is apparently deeply offended by the appearance of womens' deltoids.). But the grilled calamari with marigolds made it all mostly worthwhile, except for this morning's sourpusses. Tomorrow, off to Belgrade, Serbia.
- John
Location:Pavla Radića,City of Zagreb,Croatia
Perhaps they don't like Americans much and it's not really personal. By the way, I can't imagine how Americans would be acting if they had gone through the horrors experienced by residents there for so long.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I imagine there have been many, many foreign nationals visiting the area for a long time, attempting to put these people under the microscope so to speak. Maybe they start feeling like specimens or guinea pigs for larger forces.
Doesn't sound like much fun though. Maybe you should change course completely?
I know it isn't personal. Just little things that make outsiders feel unwelcome. If it persists in Belgrade and Ljubljana, I will have to go elsewhere. Lots of elsewheres from which to choose.
ReplyDeleteAmericans aren't very popular these days. The one time I was in Europe, backpacking after college during the Viet Nam War, Americans weren't very popular either. Many Americans put Canada stickers on their bags.
ReplyDeleteOf course it may just be that some folks in the area you are in aren't into any outsiders these days. I've gotten a similar reaction in part of Northern NM at times.
Are you sure you're not imposing your cultural worldview/expectations on the locals?
ReplyDeleteFor example, there are a lot of Russians in the neighborhood I used to live in in Los Angeles -- and every time I passed them on the street, I smiled and got a glare back. This was unusual even in LA, and I started to think it was that they were very angry and unfriendly people.
Turns out that they considered it rude to smile at a stranger -- particularly a strange woman -- on a public street. I was the one breaching their courtesies.
It's possible that what you're interpreting as hostility through a western worldview which often seems overly gregarious/eager to others is actually just cultural reserve. And your encounters with others who are more positive would seem to lend support to that possibility.
Faith
Fascinating, Faith. In most of these cases I had not made any overt act toward these people except noticing that there is a person there, but your theory may still hold. They may see mere eye contact as an affront. But I don't follow how the exceptions I've experienced prove the rule you posit.
ReplyDeleteThat maybe there is just a cultural reserve there that is absent in western culture. That, literally, the "neutral" affect in that culture may read as hostile to someone from a more emotionally expressive culture.
ReplyDeleteFor example, in New Mexico, Native Americans often come across as hostile, sullen or unresponsive, compared to the waggly puppy mentality that many American whites have. The difference makes Native Americans seem unpleasant, but it's just a culture clash -- even if there's no interaction at all.
Just a thought. I have no specific experience with Croatia, of course.
Faith
John,
ReplyDeleteSo sorry I have not been in touch until now...have been up to my eyeballs trying to get my parents to confront that they are 85 and 82 respectively, and that they need to think about what to do from here on out...:)
I have read over all your commentaries since you left...We are thinking of heading to Croatia in the spring and it is fascinating to read your perspectives.
Having grown up in New England and being an introvert myself, don't read too much into the "cold" responses you get...Could be, like Faith says, their culture and collective experiences, or just that they don't know how to respond to your friendliness...
We are currently driving back from the East...105 degrees in western OK...but there is no global warming, don't you know, because we had snowstorms in DC last winter!
Miss you and look forward to your next missives:)
Cindy
I've been to Croatia few times for business. I think Croatian people are the most unfriendly of the Balkans. So rude and grumpy. Everywhere you go, they're unfriendly. We're not talking about 'cultural reserve' here, we're talking about overt unfriendliness and hostility for no apparent reason, unique in Europe. Stay away.
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteforgot to include this my earlier post...The Croatian people and many in the surrounding areas are all survivors...most may suffer from PTSD after all that they have experienced...It is difficult to relate in "normal" ways. It is not personal:)
Cindy
Thanks to everyone for all the info... I'm from Ireland and I've been to Slovenia quite a few times, but not Croatia.... what I've just read, confirms a lot of what I already suspected.... Croatian people are not known for the friendliness and manners.... I wonder why??? People who are unfriendly and unnecessarily rude are often not very happy people...
ReplyDeleteThanks for visiting, Nigel.
ReplyDeleteI think Faith's interpretation - and maybe some bad luck on my part - is probably the best. It's probably an extreme cultural reserve. Given the positive experiences I had there, and the fact that Plitvice Lakes are there, I can't agree with the Anonymous poster who said we should stay away. Certainly people in the Balkans have a lot of reason to be unhappy, given recent traumas. Just be prrpared to be a human shock absorber when there, and to be surprised when someone is as pleasant and helpful as any you have ever met.
I must say John, your experience of unfriendly Croatians rings loud and true with me. And also of the few friendly ones that were like a breath of fresh air.
ReplyDeleteMy friend and I (both from friendly Glasgow, Scotland) spent 2 weeks in Sibenik a couple of years ago. About 50% of folks were indifferent towards us (which in itself is disappointing because at home foreigners are very welcome and we like to speak with them and make friends), 10% were were nice, and 40% were openly contemptuous of us.
We had numerous negative experiences ranging from bus conductors deliberately putting us off at the wrong stop, to bartenders simply refusing to serve us because we were not Croatian. I won't go on, but to sum up (that 40%) - we got the impression that they would spit on us if they could spare the saliva, not to mention those awful looks! I've travelled a fair bit and never have I experienced such misanthropic bitterness and disdain for outsiders.
The couple who owned the apartment we rented were amazingly friendly and the old guy was very interesting. Dubrovnik was a different story altogether too - I guess they're more cultured and educated down there.
The irony is that we were there to meet friends from Zagreb who came out to the coast to meet us, but being in company with local Croatians didn't seem to but us any favour. The dudes in the club that wouldn't serve us started giving our Croatian friends a hard time for being with us!
I totally understand folks comments about the difficulties these people have had to endure and how that can shape their attitudes, and I'm not unempathetic towards that. - but suffice to say (and I'm a sensitive soul!) it's not for me.
Hello again,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Michael's input, about the bus conductor deliberately putting you off at the wrong stop, I remember a story being told to me by some Italian friends how a group of them were going from Split down to Dubrovnik, and anyway, an American guy who sat on the other side of the aisle from him happened to have had his foot on the seat, he had taken his shoe off and all, and the driver actually stopped the bus, strode down towards him, and literally roared at the top of his voice at the guy to take his foot off the seat!!! I was so shocked at such aggression directed towards a tourist, no doubt my Italian friends were also... here in Ireland where I come from, we've had more than our fair share of problems also as you may already know, but I GUARANTEE YOU, no Irish person would speak to a foreigner in such an aggressive and threatening tone... we Irish are not perfect, but at least we treat tourists with the respect they deserve. Why can't a lot of people in Croatia do the same? By no means do I mean any disrespect to anyone from Croatia, or the country itself, I'm just merely speaking from fact.
I'm done with Croatian bashing comments. Deleted one, will delete any further that do not add anything of substance to the discussion. When in Ireland, I met rude people and drunks there, too, so let's not pretend that one country or culture is above reproach while another has problems being civil. As a professor of mine once said, All generalizations are false.
ReplyDeleteTo John McAndrew,
ReplyDeleteYou are of course entitled to your own opinion, as is everyone else here. All comments posted are from personal experience. If you experienced rude people in Ireland and drunks, that's regrettable, however, you have no right to blame it on any other Irish person, just don't go back there!! You will find both drunks and rude people in every nation. I myself have experienced rude people on my travels, but that's life, you meet nice people and you meet nasty people... and yes some Irish people can be rude and aggressive when drunk, but this doesn't just apply to a person if he or she is Irish, it can apply to anyone, any nationality and I, having worked in the Irish tourism Industry would never condone rudeness or aggression towards a foreign tourist, no matter where they were from. You obviously have a great respect for both Croatia, and anything Croatian,and that's a good thing, but unfortunately not everyone else has had the same positive experiences as you while visiting Croatia, so you really should bear that in mind.
The point that you make (anonymously), about not all Irish people being drunk and rude, is the point I make to you or whoever has posted the generalities about Croatians. Do not dismiss the people or the country because of your regrettable personal experiences. Or, do it if you want: just don't try to do it on my blog. Or I will start making generalizations about how quick to apply unflattering generalities some people are.
ReplyDeleteTo quote you on an earlier post, "all generalities are false" can you kindly explain what you mean?
ReplyDeleteI've posted a lot of posts here. Can you be more specific in your question?
ReplyDeleteI also have no idea how many people have made posts as anonymous. So I don't know if you are anonymous 1, anonymous 2, und so weiter. Feel free to post as anonymous, but please be specific as to your question, and I will do my best to answer.
I'm from Croatia myself and I must say that this foreign visitors being rude can be explained by the tensions in our country against outside world, mostly the western countries.I've worked as a bartender in Zadar, and to be honest, I've had a lot of turists from the Western Europe that were very impatient and they started insulting me for being slow while serving 20 different tables.So please stop the generalization.Also the Dalmatian Croats are known as rude,raw and lazy people.The most people you meet in the costal city's are from Slavonia and middle Croatia.
ReplyDeleteCroatians are impatient people and exposed to a lot of stress with tourism and that awfull gourvrment of it's. Hello from Zadar, Croatia!
ReplyDeleteOne can make all the excuses they want, but this doesn't make rudeness an acceptable trait in an industry that caters to tourists. Regardless of what they may have endured 2 decades ago, their choice to host foreigners as a business has but one priority. Politeness.
ReplyDeleteI will be on my second trip ( business) to Pula this summer, lets hope it's better ( attitude) than the last exercise in rudeness.
Croatians are not the same as the 'proper' Balkan people such as Serbs and Bosnians who are much warmer and friendlier. It is wrong to put them all in the same bag. This has nothing to do with the (not so) recent history; even in former Yugoslavia Slovenians and Croats had a reputation of being 'cold' and 'unfriendly' towards the rest of the country. If you want friendliness, go to the real Balkans, i.e. Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia.
ReplyDelete